Curse

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2005, 01:12 AM // 01:12

btw if you really wanted to abuse the interrupts just take flourish to recharge your skills only 10 sec recharge.

Dancing Blade · Sep 24, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man With No Name

I really do think making the interupts ignore preparations is enough -- I've done the numbers to prove it =)

...

We can't compare Ranger interupts to Mesmer's -- since ( bar human error ) Mesmer interupts don't miss. Ranger interupts are hard interupts -- Blind screws it, Enchantments screw it, Stances screw it, Spirit Shackles screws it killing Favourable Winds screws it ( since most good rangers bring Flatbow ( high arc ) and Shortbow )

Most of the Mesmer interupts even have a nastier kick -- like lost energy on top of the lost energy from the spell, damage or energy gain for the Mesmer

I completely agree with you.

glockjs · Sep 24, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

No offense intended, but did you post this in a random thread or do you actually think this paragraph brings anything valuable to the thread?

Is that some sort of variant of the "can be countered" rhetoric?

yes yes. because what i said there had nothing to do with this thread at all....you are 100% right. infact my whole post did not bring anything valuable to this thread. i agree with what you say(what i should have been doing in the first place, what was i thinking) go ahead and delete that post and maybe this one as well...or wait this one can stay because it says i agree with you. you know what...im gonna stop typing now so you dont have to read anymore of my crap OPINIONS. i'll let you go back to your unbiased mediation. thanks

Phades · Sep 24, 2005, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

But arrows can be avoided, yes? Spells can't. There's no 75% chance to avoid a mesmer spell being hurled at you, for example. There's balance.

No, but there are two forms of 100 percent spell avoidance and one that turns the mesmer interupts into crap via a stance since none of the additional effects occur unlike ranger versions.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Sep 24, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

just want the game to stay with in balance. since the nerf of spirits more players have come back to pvp and more have converted from pve to pvp.

First off, I have to say that I now support a slight adjustment to the way Ranger interrupts are now. In order words, I'm on your side...as long as the nerfs don't go overboard the way that they did with spirits.

Now addressing your quote there... How the heck did you come to that conclusion and how can you present it as fact? Do you have hard numbers from a magical source that more players have come back to PvP as a direct result of the spirit nerf? Don't post nonsense like that again.

And sorry to say...the moderation in this thread is really really biased. It's obvious.

Red Locust · Sep 24, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Well I know I've been playing an interrupt ranger for the past few weeks. Not only is this type of ranger the best damage dealing and interrupting ranger (and right up there in terms of damage compared to other classes), but the counters themselves have a high chance of being flat-out overpowered by the constant interrupts. Especially in arenas.

There is little reason to play any other ranger, to be honest.

Dzan · Sep 24, 2005, 04:24 AM // 04:24

OK, maybe Rangers are too good...

...or maybe it's us. Anyone play us tonight?

ShadowWrath · Sep 24, 2005, 04:50 AM // 04:50

My team did. We were the ones with 3 Monks.

Banebow · Sep 24, 2005, 05:12 AM // 05:12

I have been playing an interrupt ranger for a while now, did so before savage shot and punishing shot were changed, I expect I will continue to unless they hit interrupts VERY hard with a nerf. Either way, here are my thoughts...

As has been mentioned, not adding preps to interrupts seems like a good idea at first, cosmeticly it would work (you can't light that arrow on fire and shoot it that fast, now can you?) but then, going purly cosmeticly here, read the wind, while not used a lot, is kind of a stance thing, not, say, lighting up your arrows before shooting. Would this fix the problem? Perhaps not, as interrupts still deal decent damage. Perhaps it would, as losing 20+ damage per shot is a big hit.

The incredibly good recharge on savage shot is a bit unbalanced, perhaps it should be moved up to 10-15 seconds. The others? I do not think so. Mesmer interrupts recharge slower because there are fewer ways around them, not because all interrupts should have a 20+ second recharge.

0 damage from interrupts is foolish, just as I think 0 damage from distracting blow is foolish, though this is, again, a cosmetic thing really.

The 'nerfing' of skills is called balance, as many of you have said. If Anet thinks they need balance, well, I am more than willing to let them do there thing. So far I have not seen a SINGLE change that was not for the better.

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2005, 06:14 AM // 06:14

even at 10 sec recharge serpents quickness and QZ will make it a 4 sec recharge for the maximum recharge of ranger interrupts. you said yourself the recharge on savage needs to be changed then what makes the others the exception when you can make them recharge even faster than savage's base recharge.

Fantus · Sep 24, 2005, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

dmg is fine. interrupts are fine. cost are fine. recharge is NOT!!

Somewhere halfway in this tread I conceded that a slight adjustment to the possible abuse of interrupt skills might be in order. But I repeat once again, this has to be done WITHOUT nerfing the interrupt skills themselves. If you mess around with the recharge times, you will weaken the interrupt capabilites themselves in addition to nerf to damage. This is completely over the top. The idea to ignore preperation is way better because it won't keep my ranger from interrupting but will make the damage abuse less powerful. Which is what you wanted, isn't it? Nerf the abuse and not my interrupt ranger, please!

Banebow · Sep 24, 2005, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

when you can make them recharge even faster than savage's base recharge.

Take a good look at QZ, it only has, even at 10 wilderness survival, a 35 second duration, 60 second recharge. So, you can keep it up indefinatly, if you can always spare the 13-14 energy it will take. I know this was said during the NR spam days, "just kill the spirit". I am afraid that I think that actualy applies here, believe it or not. Also, even with 16 expertise, I can not see a ranger maintaining his or her energy for long, I do believe that QZ costs are added after expertise reduction (correct me if I am wrong)

I will say it straight out: There is no easy way to stop serpent's quickness. If you can get the ranger below 50% health it is shut down, but that can be hard if you are running casters as your damage (and don't say wild blow. yes it works, no, it is not something every build will carry a large number off, nor is it something with a general usefulness)

Again however, we come back to just how effective these are, and the number of counters to them. Mesmers can get interrupts down to...what? a 5 second recharge? with QZ and serpents, or mantra of recovery, and there are only 1-2 ways of stopping them, yet no one complains about them. The reason, of course, is because they can not deal damage with them whether you are using a skill or not, they have a condition.

So we come to the center of the problem: These interrupts are dealing to much damage and are to unconditional for their costs. If all they did was interrupt, tell me how many people would be using them?

People who mention counters seem to get flamed on these boards, but the counters here work against ANY ranger or warrior, unlike, say, Ignorance, which counters specific skills and is ment only to prevent signet use from getting out of hand. Look through the skills and you will find more examples of skills like this.

If your build does not have a way to survive warriors, you will die in the current metagame. Many skills usefull against warriors double as good against rangers. Skills which will be usefull 30%(assuming even distribution of all classes) of the time tend not to be taken, but then again, you can not really construct a build without at least some way to handle warriors, why not rangers?

There is but one interrupt for rangers that ignores all dodging, blocking and blinding, and that is choking gas. Not viable in the interrupt builds you have stated, this leaves interrupts that must hit to work. Just as you can avoid warriors to negate them, the same applies here. (yes, kindle still hits. If kindle alone is strong enough to kill you, I suggest you work up a new build)

In the interist of stating one more counter, the single most effective skill in the game against spamming is Diversion. 100% guarnteed to be usefull, it is the shutdown skill I expect to see on the bar of any good mesmer running domination, it casts fast, and it does a number on any skill spammer in the game. Yes, you have 4 skills to spam here. How much effectivness do you lose when, say, punishing shot is suddenly unable to be used. What about when you lose two?

Conclusions: Plenty of ways to stop builds centered around interrupt spam, perhaps add, as I said, a slight increase to savage shot's recharge time, maybe lower its damage bonus, but any drastic changes you propose do nothing but reduce the skill line to redundant, and that is no option at all, just as you can not remove serpent's quickness or QZ without causing imbalance.

-Banebow

P.S. I apologize for any spelling mistakes in the above post, I lack a spell-checking program on my computer, and that is a lot of text to go through manualy.

Tijger · Sep 24, 2005, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

even at 10 sec recharge serpents quickness and QZ will make it a 4 sec recharge for the maximum recharge of ranger interrupts. you said yourself the recharge on savage needs to be changed then what makes the others the exception when you can make them recharge even faster than savage's base recharge.

Can you show me a build that is as uber as you claim it to be? Because I detect a problem here with the claims that are made and the attribute points spread you'd need.
Or are you talk about a variation of the 55 monk in ranger guise with 3 superior runes?

Tijger · Sep 24, 2005, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Using sarcasm because you run out of arguments? PvP players are looking for balance because any random build can get you through PvE with henchmen. You don't need balance for PvE. Period. That's why PvE players are not concerned about the current 'abuse potential' of a few ranger skills. However, I bet if a few packs of 5/6 'interrupt spammers' Jade Bows were added to TK, many PvE players would be screaming. For the records, PvE players didn't even know these interrupts had been changed by the secret buff of doom.

And since you seem to have missed half the thread, yes you can have the audacity to disagree. Just don't forget to use valid arguments. We're not sharing opinions, we're having a discussion based on facts, and on numbers.

Using arrogance because you run out of actual arguments except to shout "nerf the interrupts"? You and Shinsei related perhaps?

What numbers? On page 9 of this thread someone posts an actual build for the first time, why dont you do the same for a change instead of sniping at others?

So please, produce some facts because up until now you've mainly produced opinions

FrogDevourer · Sep 24, 2005, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

And sorry to say...the moderation in this thread is really really biased. It's obvious.

Yes it is. I've removed the most sterile rants and the worst "can be countered/don't touch rangers/I play PvE" posts. On the contrary, I didn't remove posts when they provided arguments and facts, be that in favour of the balance/unbalance of these skills. Simply put, I don't care if these skills are balanced or not, and if ANet will fix them or not. As long as they are so powerful I'll keep using them and I'll be prepared to deal with them. I just want this thread to be a place where the topic is discussed on facts, not a place where you can spam opinions with no backup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

So please, produce some facts because up until now you've mainly produced opinions

Doh! Have you actually read the thread? Spammability (dmg spike, abuse of zealous, need only 3 interrupts to shut down somone), comparison with mesmer interrupts (both in terms of cost and recharge, and numer of skill slots required), ability to spam interrupts against non-spell skills, permanent shut down of a target with a few rangers, damage output higher than most damage-oriented rangers. Did you really miss all this?

snepp · Sep 24, 2005, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

OK, maybe Rangers are too good...

...or maybe it's us. Anyone play us tonight?

Were you running that a couple days ago? Looks awfully familiar to a team that halted a 21 win streak we were working on. (btw, we got destoyed

)

glockjs · Sep 24, 2005, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Yes it is. I've removed the most sterile rants and the worst "can be countered/don't touch rangers/I play PvE" posts. On the contrary, I didn't remove posts when they provided arguments and facts, be that in favour of the balance/unbalance of these skills. Simply put, I don't care if these skills are balanced or not, and if ANet will fix them or not. As long as they are so powerful I'll keep using them and I'll be prepared to deal with them. I just want this thread to be a place where the topic is discussed on facts, not a place where you can spam opinions with no backup.
Doh! Have you actually read the thread? Spammability (dmg spike, abuse of zealous, need only 3 interrupts to shut down somone), comparison with mesmer interrupts (both in terms of cost and recharge, and numer of skill slots required), ability to spam interrupts against non-spell skills, permanent shut down of a target with a few rangers, damage output higher than most damage-oriented rangers. Did you really miss all this?

so who draws the line between fact and opinion??? you?.....and what is an opinion for if you can't state it if somebody just squashes because they have power....i can name 50 skills off the top of my head that are anti "attack". but you might dub that un factual as well. why? because you can right............

Phades · Sep 24, 2005, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

Take a good look at QZ, it only has, even at 10 wilderness survival, a 35 second duration, 60 second recharge. So, you can keep it up indefinatly, if you can always spare the 13-14 energy it will take. I know this was said during the NR spam days, "just kill the spirit". I am afraid that I think that actualy applies here, believe it or not. Also, even with 16 expertise, I can not see a ranger maintaining his or her energy for long, I do believe that QZ costs are added after expertise reduction (correct me if I am wrong)

At 14 expertise the 25e skill will be reduced to 11e according to the chart. 3 pips of energy regen working for 5s is 5 energy regained durring the casting/skill use. 6e every ~35s is a laughable loss. This is especially true when looking at other professions such as mesmers, who are spending nearly triple that on every interupt excluding the inspiration counters in addition to using an eliete stance in order to try and bring down their counter refresh times to a comparable level to the base ranger counter skills refresh times. Even still, the mesmer is still dependant on a QZ environment if the mantra is to be kept up consistantly, thus causing a cross class synergy need or 4 skill line attribute split while incorporating a ranger secondary. Considering the effect fast casting has on interupts, dropping it entirely and merely trying to imitate a ranger seems like a better option, but costs far more energy and is more vunlerable to basic attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

Again however, we come back to just how effective these are, and the number of counters to them. Mesmers can get interrupts down to...what? a 5 second recharge? with QZ and serpents, or mantra of recovery, and there are only 1-2 ways of stopping them, yet no one complains about them. The reason, of course, is because they can not deal damage with them whether you are using a skill or not, they have a condition.

Cost is also a major factor if the inspiration interupts are not sucessful, unlike the ranger equivilants. Then there is the issue of the interupts being spell like skills in use ignoring the bow refire rates apperantly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

If your build does not have a way to survive warriors, you will die in the current metagame. Many skills usefull against warriors double as good against rangers. Skills which will be usefull 30%(assuming even distribution of all classes) of the time tend not to be taken, but then again, you can not really construct a build without at least some way to handle warriors, why not rangers?

Are you trying to suggest to counter an interupt with a skill with a casting time of 1s or more against something that is designed to prevent such things from occuring? There is less ranger specific hate and is more difficult to apply in the same fashion due to the abscence of need for rangers to be close to each other when applying their skills or close to the target in question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

In the interist of stating one more counter, the single most effective skill in the game against spamming is Diversion. 100% guarnteed to be usefull, it is the shutdown skill I expect to see on the bar of any good mesmer running domination, it casts fast, and it does a number on any skill spammer in the game. Yes, you have 4 skills to spam here. How much effectivness do you lose when, say, punishing shot is suddenly unable to be used. What about when you lose two?

Rangers can always opt to use oath shot to basically negate that style of attack against them. R/me with inspired hex seems to be popular as well. This is of course assuming that the ranger is not focusing on the mesmer initally, largely shutting him down anyway. A skill that begins as a 2s cast time is not what i would define as quick, but its not overly painful with decent fast casting levels.

FrogDevourer · Sep 24, 2005, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by glockjs

so who draws the line between fact and opinion???

Dictionary definition:
FACT: A concept whose truth is proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"
OPINION: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof

Say 'it can be countered' and it's an opinion.
Give the skills/builds you can use to counter interrupt skills and you get a fact.

Now if you want to understand why the 'can be countered' argument is irrelevant, reread previous posts.

glockjs · Sep 24, 2005, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Dictionary definition:
FACT: A concept whose truth is proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"
OPINION: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof

Say 'it can be countered' and it's an opinion.
Give the skills/builds you can use to counter interrupt skills and you get a fact.

Now if you want to understand why the 'can be countered' argument is irrelevant, reread previous posts.

again. you are 100% right. i digress. there is no such thing as a condition or hex in GW. sorry for my useless spam again